2011 Putting On The Foil Hockey Pool Discussion

By , July 28, 2011 11:54 am
The 3rd annual POTF Hockey Pool will have a new flavor...

The 3rd annual POTF Hockey Pool will have a new flavor...

So a new season is about to begin, and it’s time for the discussion about a hockey pool.

So far, Norweigan Oiler has brought up the topic of a “keeper” league. If you are unfamiliar with what a keeper league is, do a google search on that, but it involves keeping part of your roster from year to year.

We also have been discussing a trophy. In this case, we are going to have a virtual trophy, for sure. It will be a pic on the site somewhere (probably in the sidebar) that we’ll up date year to year to show the winners. It will be Stanley Cup style in the sense that it will maintain a list of all winners (although it will look completely different). We’re also considering a cheap-o prize. Maybe some POTF wear of some sort. But nothing has been decided there just yet. If you have ideas, let me know.

So, who is interested in a keeper pool? How about a standard pool if you don’t like keeper pools? Please vote once so we know what kind of interest there is…


Would you be interested in a POTF Hockey Pool this year?

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121 Responses to “2011 Putting On The Foil Hockey Pool Discussion”

  1. zackman35 says:

    NO. will the points system be more in depth then the one posted above? And five points per goal, isn’t that a little much? =p I can’t remember if you participated in the pool last year, I really liked the head to head system. Going up against another team once a week and you get points based off of what players did better from each category… or will this just be total accumulated points?

    NorwegianOiler:

    1.1Skaters
    Points per…
    Goal:1,5p (SO goals do not count)
    Assist: 1p
    PIM: 0,1p
    +/-: In the range of +1 to 9 (5p); +10 to 19 (10p); +20 to 29 (15p); and so forth

    1.2Goalies
    Points per…
    Win: 1p
    Shutout: 3p

    I know its priliminary stages but five points per goal? Isn’t that a little steep? :razz: How about this if its total accumulated points…

    Point System

    Skaters Offensive
    G: 2pts
    GWG: 3pts
    A: 1pt
    PPP: 0.5pts

    Skaters Defensive
    BLK: 1pt
    HIT: 1pt

    Other
    PIMS: 1min=1pt
    +/-: ??

    Goalies:
    Wins: 1pt
    SO: 3pts

    I think what was so effective with the head to head method is that your game purely does not revolve around the offensive front and its more of a rounded competition instead of going for the guys that score the most goals. Not sure exactly what you have cooking for your point system yet but I think that is an avenue we should look into (head to head) vs the accumulated points.

  2. Racki says:

    Zack: My european friend uses commas where we use decimals :P

    1,5p for goals means 1.5 points per goal, not 5 points… 0.1 pts per PIM.. etc, etc

  3. zackman35 says:

    Oh well that makes a lot more sense haha. I still like the idea of going head to head against other teams. In other news D.Lombardi filed for grievance on the Smyth deal…

  4. Racki says:

    I am neutral on the head to head. Is not a bad idea at all, but I’m fine either way.

  5. chucker says:

    I like the head to head, but at the same time I like a more traditional team pool too. I am also good both ways…..

  6. Racki says:

    I heard that about you.

  7. zackman35 says:

    Classic. Never a dull moment at the Potfff (that’s how I pronounce it in my head). Well maybe we should have a debate/poll later on then. I just feel that it’s more competitive that way, head to head vs most points win.

  8. NorwegianOiler says:

    Thanks for clearing up the decimal/comma dilemma Racki.

    I am trying to keep the scoring system as simple as possible at this point. I fear that a too complex system will keep people from wanting to join. I’d rather add more complexity as we go along (though never in-season).

    I am against the head-to-head system because we’ll be running this league ourselves (with or without automated assistance) A weekly head-to-head creates more work than a lot of us can keep up with over a long period of time and might force players to leave the league. Consistency is one of the biggest necessities for a keeper league to work, too much turnover and it will likely fall apart. Monthly updates allow interaction, but will still require a modest amount of involvement. Of course, diligent managers may read stats all day and keep up with waiver wires, trades and discussions on a daily basis.

    Here’s the rationale for the current system:
    1,5 points for a goal vs 1 point for an assist: Goals are harder to come by and goal scorers tend to be more valuable than playmakers. It MAY mean that someone like Grabner looks better than a more dynamic forward who gets a lot of assists (and fewer goals), but generally it means that players that score more are valued more. But, at a rate of 1,5 to 1 it still shows that assists are a very important aspect as well. The Thorntons or Savards of the league must not be underestimated – even though they don’t score as much.

    PIMS: The suggestion to include Blocked Shots and Hits is very good. I think I will actually include HITS and BLOCKS instead of PIMs – it is a better reflection of grit. Hick sticking or tripping penalties should not be a positive, ever :P

    I will also include blocked shots to reflect the necessity for defensive defensemen and sacrifice for the team. Hits and blocks will not be scored very high, however, since they are not a be-all end all for defense – as players like Lidström or Visnovsky show.
    0,1 point per BLOCKED SHOT
    0,1 point per HIT

    (PIMs will be dropped)

    +/- is based on what range the player is within. Giving a point per + would be too much (making Toni Lydman the elite defenseman of the leauge – almost). There will be no points for being even or worse.

    I have NOT included special teams points because it complicates things and because it really does not matter when a player scores points, as long as he does.

    I have NOT included GWGs because I find it to be a quite random stat, it MAY be the clutch GWG in OT or just a goal scored in the midst of a back-and-forth battle that ends 6-3. Not a fan.

    Taking examples from this season, that means

    H. SEDIN will have scored: 122,1 POINTS
    (Goal points: 28,5 Assist points: 75 BLK: 2,1 HITS: 1,5 +/-: 15 points for being in the 20-29 range)

    T. BROUWER will have scored: 74,3 POINTS
    (Goal points: 25,5 Assist points: 19 BLK: 3,6 HITS: 26,2 +/-: NONE)

    J.F. JACQUES will have scored: 19,8 POINTS
    (Goal points: 6 Assist points: 1 BLK: 1,7 HITS: 11,1 +/-: NONE)

    S. WEBER will have scored: 93,4 POINTS
    (Goal points: 24 Assist points: 32 BLK: 11,3 HITS: 21,1 +/-: 5 points for being in the 1-9 range)

    C. SARICH will have scored: 57,4 POINTS
    (Goal points: 6 Assist points: 13 BLK: 10,9 HITS: 17,5 +/-: 10 points for being in the 10-19 range)

    ***C. WARD will have scored: 49 POINTS
    (Win points: 37, SO points: 12)***

    I think this system reflects the necessity of all types of players. It is meaningful to pick a good shot blocker/hitter that may not score as much once the point-producers are taken in the draft. It shows how bringing multiple assets to the table may increase your value dramatically.

    * I WILL DO SOMETHING TO GOALIE SCORING TO REFLECT THEIR VALUE! It may be a range-like scoring for Goals Against Average (GAA).

    The best in each category last year would yield this amount of points from that total:

    GOALS: COREY PERRY (50 goals) = 75 points
    ASSISTS: DANIEL SEDIN (104 assists) = 104 points
    +/-: ZDENO CHARA (+33) = 20 points (for being in the 30-39 range)
    BLK: DAN GIRARDI (236 blocks) = 23,6 points
    HITS: CAL CLUTTERBUCK (336 hits) = 33,6 points

    I’ll leave goalies until I have tuned the scoring a bit.

  9. NorwegianOiler says:

    RACKI: I will amend the document I sent last night and re-send the ‘final’ version (let’s pretend it is final).

    I think the scoring system is well-balanced and fair. My goal is that we will value our players similarly to their real life GMs – and giving out a lot of points for PIMs, hits or other ‘minor’ stats will incite fantasy GMs to ice a team of Clutterbucks instead of scorers (at worst).

    More on goalie scoring in a bit.

  10. NorwegianOiler says:

    GOALIE SCORING IS NOW:

    WIN: 1 point
    SO: 3 points

    GAA: A goalie must have played 35 games or more to qualify for the FULL score below! Goalies between 10 and 35 games qualify for HALF of the points below. (I.e. a backup that gets, for example, 18 games with a 2.66 GAA he will score 17,5 points (35 : 2) for his GAA.) A goalie with less than 10 games is scored NO points for his GAA.

    Range/points
    Less than 2.00 = 60 points
    2.00 to 2.20 = 55 points
    2.21 to 2.40 = 45 points
    2.41 to 2.60 = 40 points
    2.61 to 2.80 = 35 points
    2.81 to 3.00 = 25 points
    3.01 to 3.15 = 20 points
    Above 3.15 = None

    This scoring hopefully mirrors the value of good goaltending in the NHL – examples from this year:

    T. THOMAS will have scored: 117 points
    (Win points: 35, SO points: 27, GAA points: 55)

    R. LUONGO will have scored: 105 points
    (Win points: 38, SO points: 12, GAA points: 55)

    N. KHABIBULIN will have scored: 16 points (!)
    (Win points: 10, SO points: 6, GAA points: None)

    S. CLEMMENSEN will have scored: 28,5 points (backup number of games)
    (Win points: 8, SO points: 3, GAA points: 17,5)

    As you can see, having a supreme goaltender now scores about as much as the very best forwards in the league. There were 33 goaltenders with 35 games or more last season. There were 34 goalies in the 10-34 games played range. It is thus important to draft at least one STARTING goaltender to get the full benefits of his GAA.

  11. zackman35 says:

    NO: Not trying to be a pest but I’ve ran a small league myself (10-15 members) with the cap and a point system somewhat like this at the OMB. Basically what I did was asked for everyone to join by a certain date and submit teams of their own based off the cap (so people could pick any player, there were a lot of Zach Parise’s that year – his cap hit was low) and then enter our own point system at sportsnet.ca.

    In the beginning, it was a lot of fun putting together your team deciding what would work best with the cap and designated point system (similar to your scheme) however during the season there was little to no interaction between members. Im not sure if it was because of the no need for trades, or it was the OMB but it just wasn’t very fun.

    I’ve been in many pools (weird how I have pretty good success with playoff pools) but during the season I’ve never enjoyed it nearly as much as I did when we had the team vs team version as we did last year. The straight forward points pools are usually decent but I’ve found that usually half way during the season an immense gap begins to develop and 3/4 of the way through for people who are middle ranked in the pool it’s nearly impossible to catch up to the lone top two or three people.

    Anyways that’s my two cents on it, you’ve done a lot a great work NO but like Chucker has mentioned I don’t think there’s such need to re-invent the wheel, plus I think yahoo hosts a keeper pool (which can’t the settings be altered anyway -for our roster use?) that is head to head which seams to be pretty fun.

    Right now this point system seems to be getting pretty complicated and for the “GM’s” it’s going to take a lot of work to determine who we want in our pool based of the point system, or at least that’s what I found when I was running the one OMB pool that one year.

    If we are doing this completely from scratch, which would be quote a bit of work for everybody, I’m assuming it would be on excel? If the POTF staff is getting the stats sheets then could we just make a large excel file with all the teams and information and update it once a week? At first it would be a lot of work to sry everything up but then it could be updated once a week with if/then statements (if my memory serves me) for the head to head way. :razz:

    You are right the NO, consistency is a key factor when hosting a pool but so is simplicity and ease, or at least that’s what I’ve found. So far the only thing we need to do on our own (and please let me know if I’m wrong), is host a snake draft with keeping the cap in mind, the rest we can use other resources like the yahoo or sportsnet pool for all the stats and points?

  12. chucker says:

    Thanks for picking up on that easy one Racki. :D

    Wow. Seems pretty intense. I am leaning to what Zack just said. The pools that are fun are ones that require interaction. Also, Yahoo does have a keeper pool that you can choose the stats to include. I am not sure on stats weightings though as NO is outlining.

  13. Racki says:

    Hey guys, I’ll weigh in here too….

    On the note of re-inventing the wheel, we’re going to add some stats sheets here (most likely) anyways, but if there is a site such as Yahoo that does a keeper pool well enough to how we want, then sure, we can do just that. We’ll probably develop something anyways just as kind of a project even if we don’t use it right away or even period. But bear in mind that whatever we come up with will have ability for trading, messaging, will track all your stats, the GM standings, etc. etc, etc. But will it be done in time for the start of the season? Possibly not. N.O. and I have talked about that, and thought a fall back plan would be in order.

    Perhaps one idea is that we could go with a yahoo or similar pool or something that exists for this year if we don’t get our pool manager up and running in time. We’ll have all our rosters in place for next year and have a lot of time to discuss amongst each other what we like and don’t like about the Yahoo (or whatever) keeper pool. Steve-O and I can then come up with something that fits our needs exactly.

    I do also worry a bit that if the stats and tracking and all that can get overwhelming for some people even if it is monthly, if we have to do it all manually.

    So, my proposal… Steve-O and I will try and get something fully functional in time for the start of the season. If in the event we can’t get it done in time (2 months is pretty tight, so it will be tough), why don’t we do a year with the Yahoo Keeper pool, and then we can have a stronger view of what we want/need in our pool… if we need to develop something “in house”, Steve-O and I can definitely take care of it (it’s what we do for a living and enjoy doing it). Otherwise, we can keep status quo.

    Thoughts?

    BTW, we’re also going to be adding a forum now to help with this pool, and it might take over our General Discussion area.

  14. Racki says:

    Here is the link to N.O.’s current rulebook. You can also access it under the resources section of the menu at the top of every page (the site menu.. not to be confused with the WordPress menu which sicks underneath where you type URLs).

  15. chucker says:

    Well there you go being all reasonable again. I am sure there are going to be tweaks wanted no matter what, so if it can be done in house then great. If not, the Yahoo trial is a good idea to me. Then we can all see what works well and what does not (should POTF not be ready).

  16. NorwegianOiler says:

    Having tailored a league to my liking it’s not really an option to join a yahoo pool, which I have looked into, but does not include what I want most from a league like this. I still think that the scheme I have outlined is workable and should be enjoyable for all – even though it might require some initial work from all of us – such as the draft. I’d like to incorporate a head-to-head type matchup, but it is difficult without adding too much work. I’m not worried that GM interaction in this league will be too low because there’d be quite a few of us and players would be in different situations (rebuild, win now, etc.). In my opinion, it should mimic to a degree what decisions real GMs have to make.

    I am confident that this will work :D

  17. Racki says:

    N.o. I’m away from home right now but I got that feature up. I forget your email addy so I’ll send link when I get home. Or you can send me an email to reply to. I haven’t figured out how to update the look yet though.

  18. chucker says:

    Can i be Tambellini!? I really want time to evaluate the situation.

  19. NorwegianOiler says:

    You may be Tambellini or you may be Milbury – that’s the sweet deal of the league.

    Scoring your players manually (once a month) shouldn’t take too long – I did a test in an excel sheet, scoring 23 different players – took about 20 minutes in all. If participants create an excel sheet, it’s just a copy/paste job into the appropriate post on the forum and voilá – update. Administrators will do the rest – such as update the standings.

    That leaves time to browse the waiver wire, talk trades or just bash those who drafted a big bad failure.

    To address Zack’s points;
    I believe that what I am suggesting is not a re-invention of the wheel, rather an improvement of it. Making the wheel rounder ;). I absolutely see some of the worries you have though. I haven’t run a fantasty league before, but I have clear ideas of what I want to achieve with it.

    Firstly, given an excel sheet the scoring isn’t too complicated in my opinion. What the scoring does, however, is intentionally make it hard to gauge exactly who would score the best – which is the beauty of sports. Unpredictability. That way you just can’t draft whoever gets most boxcar points, you have to make some tough gut calls. Should I draft a long-shot scorer or pick a sure-fire hitter/shot blocker? When do I take a goalie? Will Thornton’s assists outpace Havlat’s goals? I think the current scoring system is the strength of the league and I don’t think any of the online pools are as balanced.

    I don’t like leagues in which people can draft the same players. At that point great parts of any team consist of the same players – thus cancelling each other out. Ultimately you win because you picked the obscure grinder who surprised everyone, but that’s it.

    I do worry that the league may lose momentum once someone falls far behind. BUT, as in real life and as so many argue to be the case, trades can turn things around. Rebuilding is an option. Free agency is an option. Injuries may hit the top teams (drafting Crosby only to have him injured may ruin a season). The reason I brought my idea here and not elsewhere is that the members here are truly dedicated hockey fans who’d want to face some of the General Manager’s challenges of the NHL – if only analogically.

    Of course there is nothing that stops people from participating in other leagues as well, but again, I truly believe this could be fun for all of us.

  20. NorwegianOiler says:

    Nothing to see here. Move along.

  21. zackman35 says:

    Wooh, forum! Can someone please activate me? :D I think that will be a good place to start working on a new skin… Would you mind if I use a similar scheme as the devsite that never got working, Racki?

  22. Racki says:

    you know I sent you login info for thr dev site, right? And I’m not sure what you meant just now… You want to uodate the blog theme… Or the forum theme? Ill be making changes to the forum a bit, such as buttons, but would love the blog to have a similar scheme. I also activated you

  23. chucker says:

    Okay. Chucker is in the new house. My posts are not approved yet though. :D

  24. NorwegianOiler says:

    Racki has to activate your account in order for you to be completely unleashed, Chucker. As far as I know he’ll be back later today :D

  25. Racki says:

    FYI, the forum hopefully is good to go.. wasn’t quite ready for prime time (needed some time to get a handle on a few things), so bear with if things are a bit sloppy over there. We’ll get a handle on it though.

    Chucker, your posts should be OK to go now.

  26. chucker says:

    Excellent. Release the hounds.

  27. Alan-NottsUK says:

    ok what’s going on with this now, cricket has taken over my life over the weekend, so i’ve missed any developments

    edit: sidenote, how do i put an avatar on here

  28. NorwegianOiler says:

    Alan-NottsUK:
    ok what’s going on with this now, cricket has taken over my life over the weekend, so i’ve missed any developments

    edit: sidenote, how do i put an avatar on here

    It’s on, Racki has set up a forum (that you’ve seen) and we’re now simply recruiting GMs who want to take part. The rules are found in the forum once your account has been activated (by Racki).

  29. Racki says:

    There’s no activation on the forum anymore (except by the users that sign up). However, your “voice” will be muted until I remove you from the new users group (this is an anti-spam measure).

    Alan: Sorry it’s a bit of a chore to get an avatar here, but check this link where I’ve set up some help info:
    http://puttingonthefoil.com/help/faq/ (1st point there)

  30. Alan-NottsUK says:

    do I not need to be added to the group for the keeper league?

    It says I don’t have permission to view it.

  31. Racki says:

    Oops, right you are.. will take care of that now.

  32. Alan-NottsUK says:

    good to know my knowledge of phpBB’s more simple workings is still there :p

  33. Racki says:

    LOL.. I have never administered PHPBB before, so I’m just hoping I didn’t goof something up. :P Let me know if anything is weird… access you should have… access you shouldn’t have (that would seriously be appreciated). I think I have a handle on it now though.

  34. NorwegianOiler says:

    Steve-o, Ktown, Haboiler, gr8one (BostonOiler?): You have been summoned to choose your team names to enter the fantasy league. http://forum.puttingonthefoil.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5

  35. Steve-O says:

    NorwegianOiler:
    Steve-o, Ktown, Haboiler, gr8one (BostonOiler?): You have been summoned to choose your team names to enter the fantasy league. http://forum.puttingonthefoil.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5

    I won’t have access to a computer till tomorrow but will get right on that once I get to work. I’m calling dibs on the raiders.

    Edit: Nevermind, I can’t seem to do shit over there.
    Edit2:I’ve done shit

  36. NorwegianOiler says:

    Shit’s getting done alright.

    For those who have already downloaded the scoring spreadsheet, do it again: There’s a much improved and highly necessary excel sheet out that is going to do this league a power of good:
    http://forum.puttingonthefoil.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19

    If you cannot view it. Register.
    If you still can not view it. Wait for an admin to let you through the needle’s eye that keeps spam vermin out.

    Raiders registered and included, Steve-o.

    No “Blades” or “Ice ‘something something'” yet? At least Chucker’s team name isn’t a sexual innuendo, or is it? :P

  37. Racki says:

    Well, bear in mind this is Chucker’s second attempt… trust that he would be the first one to violate the name code. lol

  38. NorwegianOiler says:

    Hehe. True.

  39. Bostonoiler says:

    Been awhile, I’m back after a trip to Florida, and see I’ve been summoned by N.O. What’s the deal lol?

  40. chucker says:

    I do tend to push the envelope. Good thing I decided not to go with The Tea Baggers or Illegal Right Curve.

  41. NorwegianOiler says:

    Bostonoiler:
    Been awhile, I’m back after a trip to Florida, and see I’ve been summoned by N.O. What’s the deal lol?

    Fantasy keeper league hosted by POTF. Rules and registration are found here:
    http://forum.puttingonthefoil.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5

    Challenge accepted? :D

    Chucker: You know a moist tea bag will just stick to the ice. Where’s your team then?
    Edit, the poke checkers, the high stickers, the check from behinders…all Chucky names now somehow.

  42. Steve-O says:

    I’ve always been partial to Mooseknuckles and Iceholes.

    Lots of good names encountered in the beer leagues though.

  43. Ktown says:

    Having fun locating a real computer to login, but I’m in. Team name : Ktown Heatwave. As soon as I get to a real system I’ll get it all done. Thanks guys!!

  44. NorwegianOiler says:

    Ktown:
    Having fun locating a real computer to login, but I’m in.Team name : Ktown Heatwave.As soon as I get to a real system I’ll get it all done.Thanks guys!!

    Nice. I’ll put you up for that team name – good luck finding a computer ;)

  45. Bostonoiler says:

    NorwegianOiler: Fantasy keeper league hosted by POTF. Rules and registration are found here:http://forum.puttingonthefoil.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5Challenge accepted? Chucker: You know a moist tea bag will just stick to the ice. Where’s your team then?Edit, the poke checkers, the high stickers, the check from behinders…all Chucky names now somehow.

    Sounds cool, I’m in.

  46. NorwegianOiler says:

    Now there are just a few more spaces to fill before we can start the draft. Just saying ;)

  47. chucker says:

    How close are we to the desired number of teams?

  48. gr8one says:

    I’m In…Bulldogs Team name.

  49. Racki says:

    By my count we’ve got 22 teams. Plus we should save a spot for Trogdor.. he’s away on vacation.. I know he’d want in, and he’ll be back Monday ish.

  50. NorwegianOiler says:

    At most two more spots open (to reach 25 in all). Trogdor and Crott are included.

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