2011 Putting On The Foil Hockey Pool Discussion

By , July 28, 2011 11:54 am
The 3rd annual POTF Hockey Pool will have a new flavor...

The 3rd annual POTF Hockey Pool will have a new flavor...

So a new season is about to begin, and it’s time for the discussion about a hockey pool.

So far, Norweigan Oiler has brought up the topic of a “keeper” league. If you are unfamiliar with what a keeper league is, do a google search on that, but it involves keeping part of your roster from year to year.

We also have been discussing a trophy. In this case, we are going to have a virtual trophy, for sure. It will be a pic on the site somewhere (probably in the sidebar) that we’ll up date year to year to show the winners. It will be Stanley Cup style in the sense that it will maintain a list of all winners (although it will look completely different). We’re also considering a cheap-o prize. Maybe some POTF wear of some sort. But nothing has been decided there just yet. If you have ideas, let me know.

So, who is interested in a keeper pool? How about a standard pool if you don’t like keeper pools? Please vote once so we know what kind of interest there is…


Would you be interested in a POTF Hockey Pool this year?

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121 Responses to “2011 Putting On The Foil Hockey Pool Discussion”

  1. Racki says:

    Just a quick note… we’ll be hosting another Putting On The Foil Hockey Pool this year. Still pretty early yet, but keep it in mind!

    We’ll probably do the usual Yahoo pool with teams capped at around 10 or 12 per pool (if we get 15+, we’ll set up 2 or more pools).

    We should probably think of a cool trophy for this thing. Maybe a paper mache fist with foil on the knuckles, or something. lol

  2. Steve-O says:

    Racki: Maybe a paper mache fist

    one of those hulk fists, painted copper and blue with a little foil

    and need to mount it on a stand somehow

  3. chucker says:

    There was no trophy last year. :/

  4. NorwegianOiler says:

    As I mentioned last year, I’d love to partake in a keeper league – and would set one up online myself had I the know-how. Maybe I’ll write down a set-up (since I am on holiday anyway) for a league anyway, just to see how it would play out.

  5. Steve-O says:

    I’m in for a keeper league…I like those because you have the futures for now trades, and rarely do you have one person win back to back as they needed to sell off some future for the now.

    Bad thing is if people keep dropping out like in my nfl pool

  6. NorwegianOiler says:

    Steve-O:
    I’m in for a keeper league…I like those because you have the futures for now trades, and rarely do you have one person win back to back as they needed to sell off some future for the now.

    Bad thing is if people keep dropping out like in my nfl pool

    Yep, it’s an intriguing fantasy challenge. It allows for much more depth, yet I’d try to keep it as simple as possible. It would have to be run through a website/forum of some sort though – just to keep things manageable. I’ll be making a sketch of some rules/guidelines for such a league during the next day or two – just to see how it could be done.

  7. Ktown says:

    I’d be in for a keeper league.

    I have some buddies that did that back in University. FFS – that was (yikes) at least *deleted* years ago, and they’re still doing it.

    The trades are fun, the drafting is fun, and then the other aspect, is if guys want to drop out, like a real team owner, they have to find a buyer.

  8. Racki says:

    NorwegianOiler: Yep, it’s an intriguing fantasy challenge. It allows for much more depth, yet I’d try to keep it as simple as possible. It would have to be run through a website/forum of some sort though – just to keep things manageable. I’ll be making a sketch of some rules/guidelines for such a league during the next day or two – just to see how it could be done.

    Sweet!! Let me know if you need me to do anything that maybe could help this process… short of providing a stats database for NHL player stats.. I wish we had one. That’ll come one day down the line though, perhaps.

    Chucker: Yah we don’t have a trophy yet, we’ve just been mulling around ideas. One idea we had was to mail out a lame-o trophy to people. But then I thought.. would anyone want it? If it was Stanley Cup style, people would have to mail it back to keep adding names. So, on the *trophy* note, we’re just going to have a virtual trophy and add a pic of our trophy creation to the sidebar. Some sort of trophy will be photoshopped up going back to our first pool 2 seasons ago. As far as a prize…. I do think that would be cool too. We haven’t actually thought about that at all. Given that we’re currently in it for the fun here, we won’t be able to come up with anything too extravagant yet though.

    But for sure we can do the virtual trophy, which I actually like the idea of. It’ll be bragging rights on the sidebar or somewhere. If anyone has any fun prize ideas, let me know.

  9. NorwegianOiler says:

    Racki: Sweet!! Let me know if you need me to do anything that maybe could help this process… short of providing a stats database for NHL player stats.. I wish we had one. That’ll come one day down the line though, perhaps.

    Just out of curiosity, how many here on POTF would consider joining such a league?

  10. Racki says:

    OK folks, discuss pool stuff here.

    I personally am happy with any pool type, and a Keeper League sounds fun. Given that we’re now having a trophy and possibly some cheap prize, I’d like it if we could open it up to as many people as possible somehow. So a pool that allows many users (without impacting the fun) would be best.

  11. Racki says:

    Sorry, threw up a new option in the pool (“I’m interested in any kind of Hockey Pool and will kick all your asses!”). For the two of you that picked the keeper league specific pool but really would be fine with any pool, let me know if you want your option changed.

  12. Steve-O says:

    Can’t have a keeper league with too many people…plus in a keeper league you need people that will stick with it for more than 1 year (let alone stick with it for just the one year).

    I say keeper league, you keep 3-5 players every year, yearly draft based on last years standings (first year random), 10-12 player rosters, unlimited trades/free agent moves per year (I’m fine with the 3 per week limit), people drop out and their players hit the FA pool, new players get 3 picks first immediately (then the draft).

    I’d also say we need a min of 6-8 people to make it interesting, and no more than 15 people.

  13. Steve-O says:

    I like yahoo, but would also be fine with not having to manage a bench (all players make points in a night). Leaning towards 6 F, 4 D and 2 G.

  14. NorwegianOiler says:

    Personally I’d like to run (co-run) a league with 30 players/GMs (connected to the real franchise names). It would mirror the NHL as much as possible, meaning a salary cap (you are on hook for the real contracts, etc.) and an initial fantasy draft with subsequent yearly drafts after that.

    As mentioned, I’ll work out a general concept, keeping it as easy as possible while still incorporating a ‘true’ NHL feel. I’m not into the softer fantasy leagues – but I understand that time is a concern for everyone and will try not to make a maze of rules. I have a friend that may be able to set up a separate forum (.no based invision board) to organise this league on – should it materialize. Or maybe POTF can accomodate it? Suggestions of any kind are welcome (to me at least.) :D

  15. Racki says:

    Hey N.O., that sounds cool to me. Like I said, I kind of want to have a pool where we can handle having several GMs… give everyone a chance to play. But I also know, like Steve-O said, sometimes people drop out or make it difficult on others by not being active.

    I’ve never been in a keeper league, myself, so I’m not sure how big of frustrations those are. I know there will be at least 10 of us that will be serious players. I’m not sure about the rest of the people that would sign up though.

    But I’m thinking that this would be our “real” league that we’d have the trophy for and possibly a small prize. Any other pools would be “side” pools with no other meaning than bragging rights, and this one would be the meaningful one.

    Also, I can set up a forum for you, or give you access to make posts here, or whatever. Just let me know what it is that you would need, as I’m not really sure what all you would need to make this work.

  16. Haboiler says:

    I would definitely be in for either or both pools! Great idea!

  17. Steve-O says:

    That sounds fucking cool. I’ll do that if we can find 30 people.

    Shit, I’ll do that if we can find 10 people (our league don’t need any grinders!).

    I’m sure we could come up with a framework to store this data, the only issue is getting the stats in a timely manner that doesn’t involve lots of manual work.

  18. Steve-O says:

    That said, I’m sure we can find 30 people on the internerds (other blogs too) that would be interested. Probably enough to create a waiting list of replacements for people that want to drop out.

  19. NorwegianOiler says:

    I’m thinking a 23 man roster – plus unsigned prospects, etc. once entry drafts are done (long term investment). I’ll post a concept later today so you can all comment.

  20. NorwegianOiler says:

    Steve-O:
    That said, I’m sure we can find 30 people on the internerds (other blogs too) that would be interested.Probably enough to create a waiting list of replacements for people that want to drop out.

    I know of 2 POTF outsiders that I am confident would want to join. Should we get more than 30 (maybe a stretch) we could easily just make a waiting list, because there are always some who drop out eventually.

  21. Racki says:

    we are currently looking into what it would take to get stats sheets (ex. cap geek has data services they provide)… i.e. the cost. I don’t think it’s cheap, but we’ll figure that out.

    Steve-O, Trogdor and I happen to do database work for a living, so it’s cake for us once we get access to the data in some format.

  22. NorwegianOiler says:

    THIS IS MY INITIAL IDEA FOR A KEEPER LEAGUE: (I’ll develop a more detailed rule book if the project takes off)

    We play a regular season and playoffs (playoff details to be worked out later). Each team GM updates his team score publically each month so we can publish standings. This allows for transparency and anyone can check anyone else’s score for accuracy.

    1.0 SCORE SYSTEM
    At the start of every month, all GMs post a full roster of players (23) that will be scored throughout the entire month. This is to make it less micro-managed, but still interesting.

    1.1 Skaters
    Points per…
    Goal: 1,5p (SO goals do not count)
    Assist: 1p
    PIM: 0,1p
    +/-: In the range of +1 to 9 (5p); +10 to 19 (10p); +20 to 29 (15p); and so forth

    1.2 Goalies
    Points per…
    Win: 1p
    Shutout: 3p

    2.0 TEAM SELECTION
    - 30 teams will partake with real NHL club names; We’ll choose teams later…
    - All teams must fill a minimum of 23 players (NHL roster) and a maximum of 35 players altogether (thus having 12 players inactive at any time – this additional number may vary due to the number of draftees unsigned or not, free agents, waiver pickups, trades, etc. a GM has at his disposal)

    2.1 Inaugural draft (23 rounds)
    - Lottery to decide draft position: Snaking draft order. (This will take time, so we should kick off early if we can…)

    2.2 Yearly drafts
    - Draft position according to league finish, NHL lottery to decide fantasy lottery. (i.e. if you are 4th last and the 4th last NHL team wins the lottery – you win the fantasy lottery)
    - 3 draft rounds conducted day after NHL draft (only real draftees may be taken)

    3.0 RESTRICTIONS/RULES
    - NHL accurate salary cap (roof/floor) in effect each year.
    - No restrictions as to number of trades or signings, as long as the 23 man roster is cap compliant each month. Trade deadlines should be kept?

    If this is set up on an invision forum it would allow everyone to have account names like RACKI: EDM, NOROIL: STL, etc. so it is easier to recognize who is the GM of which team. It would also allow for PMs (trade negotiations, etc) I’m thinking separate threads for rosters, draft rounds, etc. would be essential to keep things organized.

    Thoughts?

  23. Racki says:

    N.O.: Just as a heads up, we’re looking into data services here too. I.e., we’re looking to see how much it costs to have someone (such as Capgeek) provide us with player stats. If we have this, we’re actually laughing, as Steve-O, Trogdor and I are database programmers for a living and could easily handle coding of a decent pool manager if we had access to the stats.

    I have to figure out the cost of this though.. it might be out of our league (pardon the pun).

    Anyways, having the stats “in house” in our database would kill the need for anyone to do any manual labour of calculating stats / standings / caps and such. It would all be automated.

    As far as your rules, seem to be decent, although I question whether the cap management and full-sized rosters might be something that would hinder people a bit. I personally do like the idea, although I think it can get pretty complicated. But not having done this style of league before, I don’t have the experience to say.. perhaps you have and could answer to that concern.

  24. NorwegianOiler says:

    Sounds sweet. It would be manageable (for each GM) without automation, but sweet Hubble it would be great with automation ;)

    I think a full roster would be no problem if the rules don’t require micro-management. Once a month you check your full roster (30 some players at most!) and ice 23. That’s it. As long as they are a cap compliant group, good to go. I say piece of cake. Pick your guys in a fantasy draft (that will take time, though only once) and off we go. I think the cap management part is essential to actually put some skill into it. People would have to account for more than 2 types of player (those who score a lot and those who get a lot of PIMs) and instead have too look a bit at cost efficiency, overall value, contract length and so on. Still, no hard rules on waivers, buyouts and such. Just have an excel sheet with the salaries and calculate roster options. Once a month. It would work…:D

  25. zackman35 says:

    I love the idea, sign me up. About the number of teams though, there has been an argument that the NHL itself could be a more skilled game if we cut a few teams… So do we really need 30 teams? What if we only had twenty? And I think it would be interesting to get some “higher ups” in the Oilers blog world, someone like Lowetide or something.

    Another idea, if we have enough people who are really serious about playing (instead of using NHL teams) I wouldn’t mind working on creating new team logos/names. We wouldn’t have to go as far as jerseys and what not but logos would be fun to make, even if there are 30 teams. I really like the idea of having places to keep prospects/AHL’s under contract as well. Is there a way we could keep maybe 5+ spots for prospects in juniors/AHL?

    Another idea is we’d have to run some lotto type system for the draft as well so people don’t tank near the end of the season. Especially because at the end of this season there could be a potential generational talent.

    So will this pool be ran, point wise, the same as our yahoo one last season? Including things like hits and blocked shots etc?

  26. Racki says:

    Zack: the answers to your last questions are in the comments (that wasn’t meant to be rude at all! just saying to check the comments out). N.O. posted his rules just a few comments above as far as points. There wasn’t anything about hits or blocked shots though.

    And I believe he mentioned something about new draftees.

  27. Steve-O says:

    I’m pretty sure we could host something on here, and wouldn’t need any other forums to handle it. Plus if it’s on here then we’d be able to tinker with building a page for it.

    I like pretty much all of what you said N.O. Points make sense, and everything would work. I might want to change up the NHL draft lottery sync, to maybe a lottery of our own but let me think about that more.

    As for people tanking, if it was good enough for the Oilers it’s good enough for the pool. Plus that way you get the good now for future talent trades.

  28. Racki says:

    I agree with N.O. though that we have an NHL style draft lotto. So while tanking is possible, there’s a chance that 30th place won’t get the #1 pick.

    This is pretty exciting. lol I hope we can get this all organized and launched for the first game of the season if we’re doing in-house stats. If we don’t have in-house stats, that will be disappointing. But we could go the route N.O. suggested of having people update their own stats.

  29. NorwegianOiler says:

    zackman35:
    I love the idea, sign me up. About the number of teams though, there has been an argument that the NHL itself could be a more skilled game if we cut a few teams… So do we really need 30 teams? What if we only had twenty? And I think it would be interesting to get some “higher ups” in the Oilers blog world, someone like Lowetide or something.

    Another idea, if we have enough people who are really serious about playing (instead of using NHL teams) I wouldn’t mind working on creating new team logos/names. We wouldn’t have to go as far as jerseys and what not but logos would be fun to make, even if there are 30 teams. I really like the idea of having places to keep prospects/AHL’s under contract as well. Is there a way we could keep maybe 5+ spots for prospects in juniors/AHL?

    Another idea is we’d have to run some lotto type system for the draft as well so people don’t tank near the end of the season. Especially because at the end of this season there could be a potential generational talent.

    So will this pool be ran, point wise, the same as our yahoo one last season? Including things like hits and blocked shots etc?

    Lotto system would be ‘easy’ to arrange (as would a lottery for the original fantasy draft) – with a bit of trust of course.

    My suggestion is to have a 23 round fantasy draft, after which GMs can sign free agents up to a total of 35 players (that would include unsigned prospects, players in the minors/Europe). That way a player can have assets outside of the ‘scoring’ roster each month.

    I wouldn’t oppose a league of less than 30 teams (but no more than 30), or a league in which teams are named by the GMs.

    I do oppose having too many scoring factors, and including subjective stats like hits is difficult.

    As I said, I’d love automated score updates, but failing that I think it is still realistic to have GMs update a post of their own with said stats. After that, an admin could easily rank the teams in an official League Standing post.

  30. Racki says:

    I’ve found some free stats sheets out there in a format that would work…

    However one challenge involves player movement… i.e. tracking that Joe Blow scored 20 goals with team a and 10 of his goals with team b. We’ll figure something out though.

    Steve-O, book a meeting room so that we can design this shit, pronto.

  31. chucker says:

    I used to do a salary cap league every year. It was on small world.com, which I THINK. Is now the sporting news. It is a keeper with the ability to sell and buy players. Top rated players cost lots and rising surprises earn you more cap space. You don’t manage games so much as players. I would be down with that. I wish I could find my old login information.

    So every GM in the league starts with the same amount of cash and has to fill a roster. How those players do changes their value and if you are shrewd, you can earn more with smart trades and buy more top end players by buying and selling. It’s esentially like a stock market pool.

  32. dawgtoy says:

    I’d be a yes to whichever pool you decide.

  33. NorwegianOiler says:

    Racki:
    I’ve found some free stats sheets out there in a format that would work…

    However one challenge involves player movement… i.e. tracking that Joe Blow scored 20 goals with team a and 10 of his goals with team b. We’ll figure something out though.

    Steve-O, book a meeting room so that we can design this shit, pronto.

    I’m loving the follow up here, particularly from the database crew. While you look into the stat sheets, should I ink out some more ‘detailed’ rules? I expect it to be a process that yields a few questions everyone could chime in on.

    As for a forum to keep track of this league, I foresee the need for:

    A thread in which people announce their participation and name their team.

    1) A rules/info thread. Possibly a “questions thread”.
    2) An inaugural draft thread (and a sticky post with the rounds that have gone by, so people can keep track of which players that have been taken)
    3) A sticky to announce trades/signings, etc.
    4) A thread where everyone has a post they can update (for their monthly roster/scores)
    5) A sticky to post the standings each month.
    6) If there is no PM system, a thread to negotiate trades.

    And, ugh, we MIGHT need a Gary Bettman who can solve disputes (though I don’t think it will come to that) or answer questions.

  34. chucker says:

    Surely there must be a site that does this automatically. Do we need to re-invent the wheel or is there a suitable online system we can use?

    There is, and stop calling me Shirley.

  35. chucker says:

    http://www.cdmsports.com/

    Found this on HF. There are a bunch just like it. Perhaps worth checking out?

  36. LateNightOilFan says:

    I’m undecided. I did enjoy last year’s pool, but I need something less time consuming. I’m fine in the fall, but once Jan hits I often put in 60 hour work weeks, and that doesn’t include my hour long commute each day. So I’m at work all the time and most of the sites like last year’s are blocked by my work as gambling sites. So updating my roster has to happen early in the morning or late at night when I’m either not quite awake or too exhausted to care. So I found it hard to keep up and half the time I couldn’t even think about trades. So I may just pass this year.

  37. Racki says:

    I can understand that LNOF, and there’s a good chance we’ll have a pool for the casual players too. But there will be a keeper pool for the big bragging rights and the virtual trophy and such.

  38. Racki says:

    chucker:
    Surely there must be a site that does this automatically. Do we need to re-invent the wheel or is there a suitable online system we can use?

    There is, and stop calling me Shirley.

    Steve-O and I have actually long had it in our heads to have stats stored in our database here to reference, report on, and things like that. So having the stats at our fingertips for that or for the pool would open up some exciting stuff for the site. So we’ll probably explore that route at some point, be it now for this pool or down the road.

    As far as re-inventing the wheel, the one good thing is we could easily make the pool exactly how we want it to be.. our rules (or N.O.’s in this case) exactly. We’d be able to post all the information right here on the site too.

    My only worry is that some work filters (like LNOFs) pick us up as being a gambling site or whatever. Although we could always host that part in a “sister” site too.

    But yah, that’s where our head is at with the whole stats in house thing. I did some digging, and it looks like it would be $150/year for regular season NHL stats to be delivered daily, on our “door step” in a nice usable format..

  39. zackman35 says:

    Hmmm so would there be a dreaded sign up fee? I wouldn’t mid paying a few bucks especially if it’s a keeper pool but unfortunately I’m still not on the whole online credit card/paypal wagon yet. :p Hmmm I wonder if there is a way to get them easier… I could talk with a few of my programer friends but I think they would have a less legal route, especially of they want $150 for daily stats.

  40. NorwegianOiler says:

    chucker:
    Surely there must be a site that does this automatically. Do we need to re-invent the wheel or is there a suitable online system we can use?

    There is, and stop calling me Shirley.

    Sirius, it’s not about re-inventing the wheel for me, it’s about doing it just right ;)

  41. Racki says:

    zackman35:
    Hmmm so would there be a dreaded sign up fee? I wouldn’t mid paying a few bucks especially if it’s a keeper pool but unfortunately I’m still not on the whole online credit card/paypal wagon yet. :p Hmmm I wonder if there is a way to get them easier… I could talk with a few of my programer friends but I think they would have a less legal route, especially of they want $150 for daily stats.

    Steve-O and I know how to do it the “less legal route”, but we don’t want to do that. We wouldn’t charge an entrance fee for the pool, no.

    N.O./Chucker: As far as this whole re-inventing the wheel or using what is out there… I’m not sure how quickly Steve-O and I can get something going, but if we can’t get it going in time for this year, then we could have a fall-back plan where a pool site is a temporary solution, or the forum idea that N.O. explained above.

  42. chucker says:

    I was just looking at it from a workload POV. If you already have something in mind that enhances the site, obviously that’s different. I know you programmer types like to show off your skills. :P

    NO, you may be an OCD comrade. Either that or a AAA personality. I may know somebody like that. :o

  43. Racki says:

    Chucker: yah we are show offs, aren’t we :P But seriously, yes, it’s a bit two-fold for us… the stats could be used for a variety of things to enhance the site (i.e. allows us to make some better stats-analysis/reporting posts). I am not sure we could “re-invent the wheel” fast enough, but it’s something that we’d be able to have in place for the 2012-13 season for sure. We’ll see how this all goes. I think we’ll want a secondary pool manager working along side our version anyways for the first bit just to ensure that things are working right on our end.

    But trust me, we appreciate the work load concern. However, Steve-O had the day off today and planned on doing some work on this pool manager stuff. He said this to me which sums up our feelings of work at work and work outside of work: “I’m probably going to do more work than you today.” Doing this kind of stuff is a bit more fun than our usual work. Nerrrddds.

  44. NorwegianOiler says:

    I don’t mind the workload myself and it seems like the idea has ignited some passion among the more skilled workers around here too ;)

    I will try to work out a plan B (a forum set up to host the league) and write up a rulebook – to be amended and completed together with you all.

  45. Ktown says:

    I’m so very in for this league. Love the rules N.O.

  46. Alan-NottsUK says:

    where’s the I’m English and have no idea how the hell these things work option :p

    The only fantasy sports thing I’ve ever done is for the Premier League, and you pick your team at the start, leave it til January make transfers and done lol

  47. NorwegianOiler says:

    I will have a rulebook up in a short while. It is a wee bit longer than the above listed suggestion, so it may fit better somewhere else, or what do the owners of POTF say?

    (Alan, you can read the rulebook once it is up, it will hopefully explain how this will work!)

  48. Racki says:

    Want to email me the rule book when you’re done, N.O.? (or use the contact us option under help in the top menu right below the site logo area).

    I’ll then make a page for it and post the link to it here.

  49. NorwegianOiler says:

    Racki:
    Want to email me the rule book when you’re done, N.O.? (or use the contact us option under help in the top menu right below the site logo area).

    I’ll then make a page for it and post the link to it here.

    Sent!

  50. gr8one says:

    hell yes.

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